Love Fashion? Don't Miss This Conversation Between Raf Simons and Miuccia Prada

They talked about "what fashion means," "how to find originality," "what Belgian fashion is," and more.

System, a fashion magazine that publishes nothing but conversations, recently sat Miuccia Prada and Raf Simons down to talk about fashion.

The talk reportedly ran three hours and covered "should fashion designers censor themselves," "how do fashion designers feel about being judged," "what fashion means," "how to find originality," "what Belgian fashion is," and "does the democratization of fashion contradict elitism." Raf Simons also talked about why he left Dior, and what he makes of the act of leaving itself.

One interesting point: fashion designers, it turns out, are quite afraid of how the media judges and reviews them, and they hate having their ideas pulled out of context. They even compared this "misfortune" to the self-censorship systems in the history of the press.

This wasn't an interview without a voice-over — there was a host. The two didn't debate each other; the magazine put the questions and each designer answered in turn. Which raises the real question: why did System want Miuccia Prada and Raf Simons in the same patient conversation? The magazine never gave a frank explanation, but judging by the two designers' answers, they at least admire each other, and they agree on some of the more abstract questions.

We've picked out the best parts below. To read the original, click here.

1. Designers shouldn't censor themselves first

Miuccia Prada: "I've never been very good at interviews. If I'm going to speak, I have to tell the truth, or I can't express myself at all. But a lot of what I say isn't necessarily 'politically correct.'"

Miuccia Prada: "I'm always checking myself, because I can't always speak freely about the things that interest me. Sometimes I'm thinking about very conceptual things, and before I've worked them out they come out of my mouth — and then they might end up as a headline. Which means your thinking has gone beyond your control. You can't say this, you can't say that, so it's best to say nothing at all. In the last interview I gave, I cut 80 percent of it."

Miuccia Prada: "The reality is that setting out your ideas and explaining them has to happen inside a specific context. That's what lets people grasp the real meaning. But pull a single sentence out of that context and it becomes something else entirely."

Raf Simons: "I think a designer should say what he thinks — we shouldn't censor ourselves first. Sometimes people write extreme things online about our designs. But if we did the same, we'd be in trouble."

Raf Simons: "The more visible your position at a company, the more careful you have to be. Having your own brand is one thing; working at Dior is another. Back then I was always thinking about what I should do or say and what I shouldn't — I even kept a list. It was complicated. And I read less and less about fashion, though before that I'd been quite interested in what people in the industry were saying. This industry, designers especially, is very cautious. I can be a fan of other designers, and there are people whose work I dislike. 'Dislike' is the wrong word, but there's always something you don't like. As for me, I don't much mind whether people dislike my work."

Raf Simons: "A designer's job is this: we choose to work with clothes, with shows, with photographers, with everything else. Even so, we still need to say things directly. So many people now comment on fashion and the fashion industry, and some of them hold up their own experience above everyone else's. I don't like that. I'm the kind of person who likes to listen to young voices and work out what young creativity is."

2. "As a public figure, sometimes you just have to shut up."

Miuccia Prada: "I like that my views can reach more people; that's the fun of it. You step outside the small elite circle you've always dealt with, and then you can face all sorts of people. The comments, meanwhile, are either smart or clumsy. More and more people can speak, everything is happening at once, but that doesn't necessarily produce cleverer conclusions. That's how the world is."

Raf Simons: "Negative opinions don't touch me. But I can't deny myself. Sometimes I think: why should I be punished because people I don't know wrote ugly things about my show? Why can't I hit back? Later I understood: as a public figure, sometimes you just have to shut up. But if Miuccia Prada and I were in a closed room, we ought to have some way to say what we think — about our own brands, about other brands. It's not about good or bad; it's about stating a point of view."

3. "Our business keeps getting bigger, so we probably really do need to be politically correct"

Miuccia Prada: "I don't know whether this kind of information can really travel that fast. Because our business keeps getting bigger, we probably really do need to be politically correct. When you're small you can do as you please. But once you're a big brand, or part of a big group, you start caring more about ethics. And then you get more and more conservative."

4. "Consumers are always interested in entertainment, but that isn't necessarily right"

"Fashion still has courage in it; plenty of designers are taking risks. Sometimes what we do looks a little strange, and there is a line between pure art and fashion. I've always leaned toward clothes people can actually wear; otherwise I'd change jobs and become an artist. I'm a fashion designer and I'm also running a business, but at the same time we want to be more creative, even to move a few boundaries. And consumers are always interested in entertainment — if Raf Simons designed the next Prada collection, say, I'm sure a lot of people would find it fascinating. But that isn't necessarily the right thing to do. So with the decisions you make, you should be careful, and not be taken in by 'amusing ourselves to death.'"

5. "Leaving Dior wasn't a big deal in itself, but plenty of people made a fuss"

Raf Simons: "Leaving Dior wasn't easy, but I found that being a creative director and running your own brand are not the same job. It's rare to do both; I have. Your own brand is something you have to build yourself, like your own child. As a creative director you're still raising a child — just not your own."

Raf Simons: "I worked in womenswear at Jil Sander for seven years; Dior was shorter, only three and a half. I realized that until you actually become creative director somewhere, you can't understand what it's like. I just felt Dior wasn't right for me, and I wasn't right for them. It's complicated. And I don't feel that leaving Dior made me stronger; I'm the same as before. 'Leaving Dior' wasn't a big deal in itself. But plenty of people made a fuss: 'My god, you left Dior.' That's not how it was. There was no argument when I left; I simply made a quick decision to go. I don't know whether it's because I'm Belgian, but given what I want and the way I look at things, my demands are high. I didn't want to impose my own things on Dior. I knew what would happen if I extended my contract, and that might not be what I wanted. I had a direction for Dior in my head, and Dior had a direction of its own. I hope they do better and better, but that isn't part of my plan."

"The whole fashion world was shocked by it; everyone was saying you can't leave LVMH, you can't leave Dior. Sometimes I hate that kind of talk in fashion, that hysteria. When someone takes a new job, or leaves a company, there's always so much gawking and guesswork. The whole system puts pressure on you, and the brands come and add more. I keep thinking, could someone give me a little more time. I miss the relatively quiet days, when I'd only just started my own label and nobody paid me such serious attention."

6. "So even if a designer makes good-looking clothes, I won't wear them if I don't agree with his ideas"

Raf Simons: "I wear Prada not only because I like the clothes, but because some of Miuccia Prada's ideas connect with me. Brands all over the world can make good-looking clothes now, because everyone knows how to make good-looking clothes and design good-looking fabric. That doesn't interest me much. So even if a designer makes good-looking clothes, I won't wear them if I don't agree with his ideas. That may set me apart from a lot of people."

7. For a lot of people, does fashion mean nothing?

Raf Simons: "Many people choose clothes by whether they look better in them. I think that's why fashion has changed so much in the past ten years. A garment from this brand, shoes from that one, a bag from a third. Growing up, I could always spot the Yohji Yamamoto woman, the Helmut Lang woman, the Prada woman — those choices came out of culture and a state of mind."

8. How do you find originality?

Miuccia Prada: "I like ideas that are entirely new. But much of the time now you feel that 'there is nothing new under the sun.' The key to innovation is that you discuss a thing inside a context, and how you choose to put different things together and talk about them. You could look into pop-up stores, say, or why women like pink. So the collection that follows is there to make a statement."

9. Belgium has no long fashion history, but everyone still wants to make something

Raf Simons: "When it comes to fashion, design or manufacturing, Belgium has no long history. So it's rather strange that, on the backs of Martin Margiela, Dries Van Noten and Ann Demeulemeester, the market suddenly started talking about Belgian fashion. Since Belgium has no advantage in manufacturing, it's also best not to put Belgium next to Paris or Italy."

Raf Simons: "What's interesting, though, is that precisely because this country has no fashion history to speak of, everyone wants to make something — even if at first they're too shy to say so. Belgium is a small country, so we feel a little small inside too, and that breeds other things. It's a mental condition: in Belgium's younger generation you can feel something about to burst out, and at the same time they're bashful and reluctant. In fashion, the loudest voices don't always have the most to say. In any case, if the younger generation, or the one after it, wants to make a name in fashion, they'll meet much what we met: the country can't give us much; Belgium can't provide them a complete system. But look at Italy, the United States, France — they built a fashion system, a structure, long ago. I think a designer like Martin Margiela was never able to solve the problem of the fashion system and its structure across his whole career. He was enormously creative, but he wasn't the person who could solve the 'system' problem. Without his partner Jenny Meirens he might never have become famous, and we'd never have heard his name."

10. Fashion has already been democratized. Is elitism still worth anything?

Miuccia Prada: "That's a hard question to answer. The word 'elitism' isn't a good signifier to begin with; it sounds just as bad as the word 'luxury.' But if 'elitism' stands for 'learning,' 'research,' 'reading' or 'discussion,' then it's a good thing."

Miuccia Prada: "When someone comes to discuss luxury with me, I refuse. I hate the word, and everyone who talks about it — whether they say luxury means owning a huge diamond or taking a walk in the countryside, I don't like any of it. I don't think any discussion of luxury can be right. And the word 'elite' is hardly better."

Raf Simons: "Anything to do with 'elite' has to be fashion's hierarchy. Anyone can buy a ticket to a concert, but fashion still runs through designers and fashion houses, and they decide who gets to come to the show. I don't know whether that's right or wrong, but I'd like to try out other ways of doing it. At one of my recent shows we put out no seats; the audience watched the whole thing standing up."

11. A designer could put out one collection every three years, but the company's wallet won't be happy

Raf Simons: "Music and architecture have systems of their own, just as fashion always designs its ready-to-wear six months ahead. But as designers we do have choices. Miuccia Prada could say she only wants to put out one collection a year and then hold a show whenever she likes. Plenty of people would still come. Then she does as she pleases and she's happy — but would that make the company, and the company's wallet, happy? Not necessarily. In my own experience, I could give my brand two shows a year, or one show every three years. I could do that to make myself happy. But I'd also know it would create financial problems. It always comes back to your own will: what you want and what you don't."

12. "My job forces me to think about things that aren't beautiful"

Miuccia Prada: "When you're designing clothes, your thinking feels pure. But my job forces me to think about things that aren't beautiful: which things are bad, which things won't sell. That forces me to see reality, to work out what other people need. That's an important part of my job: facing reality head on. If everything goes smoothly, fine. But I care a great deal about what gets in the way of the work, and that matters too."

Cover image and in-body images from: s450.photobucket.com, 10magazine.com.